Accepted: How a Non-Traditional Applicant Gets Into UCLA Law [Episode 507]

How a Non-Traditional Applicant Gets Into UCLA Law

Everyone has challenges when applying to top law schools. But combine non-traditional work experience, a low stat or two, and a growing family, and this applicant faced significantly more than the usual hurdles. He overcame them all and got into his top choice program. Let’s find out how he did it, and how he’s doing now. [Show summary]

Hello and welcome. Thanks for joining me for this the 507th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check and not only that reality check, but an assessment and tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it’s all free. You can use the calculator at accepted.com/law-quiz, to obtain your complimentary assessment. Again, that’s accepted.com/law-quiz Grew up here in LA. Went to school in New York, Yeshiva University. I met my wife and we got married in LA, but we lived in New York for a couple of years and then the weather was just too much. And you can’t compete with the weather out here, so we moved back where our families are.to obtain your complimentary assessment.

I’d like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk, Yitzy Frankel, who is a 1L at UCLA law. Yitzy earned his bachelor’s in psychology from Yeshiva University in 2013 and a master’s in marketing from Sy Syms School of Business in 2018. Before joining Sy Syms, he worked as the marketing and social media manager for fencing in the schools, and that’s fencing as in the sword stuff, not the stuff around your backyard. And while fencing in the schools, he managed fencing programs in 10 states. After earning his masters, he worked at a Jewish boy’ high school in Los Angeles as Director of Admissions and Marketing, and he did that from 2017 to 2022, when he left to join UCLA Law. Yitzy, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.

Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where did you grow up, that kind of thing? [2:11]

Grew up here in LA. Went to school in New York, Yeshiva University. I met my wife and we got married in LA, but we lived in New York for a couple of years and then the weather was just too much. And you can’t compete with the weather out here, so we moved back where our families are.

Before we get into the admissions and law school stuff, what do you like to do for fun? Just a little background. [2:33]

I guess I have three main hobbies. Fencing, obviously.

Okay. [2:41]

I still fence competitively. Having a little bit of time with COVID and studying for the LSAT, but I still consider myself a fencer. I love biking and I’m a Van Gogh enthusiast.

Wow. [2:54]

My goal is to see every Van Gogh painting in the world.

There was a big Van Gogh exhibit here last year, wasn’t there, or two years ago? [2:57]

There was one in Santa Barbara recently. And actually, for my break, I’m flying to Detroit for a couple of days with my oldest daughter. We’re going to go see a Van Gogh exhibit there.

Now let’s get to law school stuff. How did you get interested in becoming a lawyer? It’s quite a change from psychology and marketing or being an admissions director at a high school. [3:12]

It’s something that I was interested in when I was 16 in high school and then kind of came back. I’m 34 now. So definitely kind of a second career. But basically, I had a teacher, Mr. Wasserman in high school that gave me a John Grisham book, and I fell in love with it. And at the time, I think there were 16 or 17, and I read all of them in two months.

Oh, wow. [3:42]

Yeah, I know. Since then, I’ve learned the legal field is not like the novels. But that’s definitely what piqued my interest. And I definitely always wanted to be a lawyer since then. The reason it took me so long is because I got to college and for various reasons, my GPA suffered. No good reasons, nothing that that’s excusable, just my lack of focus. And so I decided, I guess law school isn’t for me with my GPA.

I later learned that with a good LSAT and a strong application, you can really make up for a lot. But I kept pushing it off, and I got married. I’m like, I should have done it before I had my first child. I should have done it before. Then I had twins in the middle of COVID. I’m like, “Oh, now it’s for sure too late.” And then I met someone who was four or five years older than me who had decided enough pushing it off, time to go. And he went back to law school. And that kind of really inspired me that if he could do it, and I could be done before he started, age wise what’s my excuse.

So is he out now? [4:44]

He might be in his last year. I don’t remember exactly when he started.

So you mentioned the low GPA. Did you face any challenges, other challenges I should say, besides the low GPA when you were applying to law school? [4:52]

I guess other than my age and having three kids and it being a little bit different to take off three years to go to law school, it was really the low GPA and I just knew I needed to have a perfect application.

So two questions. How did you address or attempt to address a low GPA? Obviously, you can’t change it. Was your master’s GPA higher? [5:15]

Yeah.

Okay. So that was already good. [5:26]

That definitely, I completed that in I think 2018. So it was definitely not something that I did on the side just to show that I could get a high GPA for the purpose of law school, though I’m sure that probably works. But it was working with Brigitte at Accepted, I was really able to take responsibility for why my GPA had been so low even though it was so many years ago. And to show them between my career and between the masters and obviously, with a good LSAT score that I really can handle the rigors of law school and don’t judge me just by my GPA. That was old.

That’s basically what you have to do. And in terms of the LSAT, did you take it once? Did you take it more than once? Did you get a tutor? Did you take a course? [6:04]

I took it twice. I studied with a phenomenal teacher. But with three kids in a full-time job, I made the mistake of taking it the first time right after the holidays in September, October time, about a year ago. And not having a minute to breathe and just the final stretch of studying right before is very important. I didn’t do as well as I expected. And Brigitte actually encouraged me to, if you think you can do better, go for it. And thank God I took it then in January. So I was also a late applicant. As far as law schools go, I applied in the end of January, early February.

Oh, wow. That is late. [6:49]

Yeah.

But you still did it. [6:51]

Yeah.

All right. And in terms of making your application perfect, what did the perfect application mean to you? [6:53]

At a very detailed level and making sure every period is in the right place. But it was more working with Brigitte, just to craft a coherent story, whether it was the personal statement or an addendum about my GPA. I don’t know if I have the most impressive story. I’m sure they hear some really impressive stories, and people have had impressive experiences and lives, but I spoke about what was personal to me. And it was really well crafted. Most people apply to law school once, so it’s something that’s like, why not talk to the experts? And Brigitte was an expert in non-traditional applicants. She, I believe, worked for UVA’s admissions department with people like me, like let’s give them a second look and see what’s there. She kept me from making mistakes. Really funny example was I kind of took what I thought was a self-deprecating crack at admissions officers because I was working in admissions. And she’s like, “Who do you think is reading your application?” Think about that. So she really helped me to present the best version of myself, I think.

That’s a great answer. Thank you. How did you choose where to apply? Obviously, you applied to UCLA, you got into UCLA. But that was one of many schools that you applied to. So what were you looking for in law schools? [8:10]

I applied to 17 schools.

You had several acceptances too. [8:22]

I had seven acceptances, six wait lists and three rejections.

That’s amazing. That’s very impressive. [8:31]

Yeah, I know. I was shocked. Honestly, UCLA was the dream. I’m thrilled that I got in. It was very funny. I guess as a splitter, high LSAT, low GPA, I was either wait listed or accepted with a lot of scholarship. Basically, I chose schools that were obviously in LA. I blanketed the LA area. But also just because I’m a religious Orthodox Jew and I’ve got three kids, I picked schools where I thought I was competitive that were in decent enough Jewish communities.

Got it. [9:08]

So one good example is Wash U and St. Louis.

Yes. [9:12]

Phenomenal school. They gave me a ton of scholarships. They were very generous and a good Jewish community.

Why did you choose UCLA? Was it mostly family or was it something about the program? [9:19]

I guess for two reasons. Honestly, it made the most sense. It was here in LA. Both our families are here. Very highly ranked, but that was the reason, that was number one. But learning more about it and having gone there, it’s just such a phenomenal school. It’s known as one of the schools where everyone’s collaborative. There’s really no backstabbing. Older students, and even my classmates are just happy to share outlines, for example.

That’s wonderful. [9:50]

Yeah, the teachers are just of the highest caliber, and they also have several different institutions where you can specialize. Just this coming semester, I’m going to be taking trademark law with an expert in the field.

And that kind of leads to my next question. You’ve obviously very happy at UCLA. But what do you like best so far about your UCLA law experience? I know you just finished finals, so it might be… And what do you think needs to be improved? So there’s two questions there. [10:08]

I mean, now that finals are over, that’s what I like best about it. Honestly, I’d say the caliber of the professors. They’re really all trained at some of the best schools in the country, and they’re phenomenal teachers.

Oh, that’s great. [10:41]

Great. So I really just enjoyed the classes. Even the class I enjoyed the least, civil procedure, I just enjoyed going to class every day, even though it was really difficult for me. It was by far the hardest class for me. The cases are just thrilling in my opinion. There’s really nothing to complain about. There’s so much to do, there’s so many programs going on. Obviously, as a 1L, I don’t get a lot of chances to take part in it. My biggest complaint is that there’s a reading room all the way up in the fourth floor tower, and the couches are so comfortable and just looking out the window, watching the sunset can kind of lull you to sleep. They’re a little too comfortable.

I know what you mean. Not about those catches, but about being comfortable when reading and all of a sudden, oh, well. Now, you obviously haven’t been in school for several years. What surprised you about your experience at UCLA Law? [11:25]

So I obviously wasn’t the best student, but I found that by prioritizing my schedule, and also, I kept a living document, a rolling document that I would edit that was kind of open on my computer at all times of the next week to week and a half of what was coming up. And I would mark what I’d read, what was coming up. That kept me on track. So I was always able to keep up with the readings and the assignments and whatnot. It was tough. It was tough sitting in class for hours a day at first, but then I really got into it.

And you adjusted. [12:12]

Yeah.

You adjusted. Do you have a specialty you intend to go into? [12:14]

For now, I’m looking more in the, there’s the Ziffren Institute at UCLA that has, it’s like media, entertainment, technology, and sports. So I’m going to take classes in that area, starting with trademark this coming semester. And we’ll see. I think the kind of intellectual property side of things is thrilling.

It’s a very interesting field to be sure. Now, you mentioned that you have a family. How old are your kids now, may I ask? [12:38]

My oldest is four and a half, and there are the twins and they’re identical, so it’s really cute. They’re about two and a half.

Wow, okay. That’s a handful. Two and a half year olds are a panic. [12:52]

Yeah. My wife gets all the credit. I studied for the LSAT for 11 months and she watched the kids every Sunday I was studying. So she really gets all the credit. It’s really not easy to make a career change this late in life. And she’s the one that really gets most, all of the credit, really.

I am sure. It sounds to me like it was very much a joint effort. [13:17]

Yeah. She’s the one who called me and encouraged me.

Do you feel that having a family at this point is making your law school experience more difficult or is it giving you focus, motivation? Which way is it? [13:23]

I don’t want to say it’s an obstacle in a bad way, but it’s definitely, my kids need attention. I wish I could see them more. I spend as much time as I can with them. I’m off now, so for a month I’m just spending every day with them. It’s not easy, but it’s definitely manageable, with prioritizing. Set aside my work to get it done. When I finish class at two, until five, I go home, spend an hour with them until they fall asleep and then finish the rest of my work. And they’re young. Hopefully, they won’t remember it too much.

Well, sounds like you’re also disciplined and you are making time for them. So far, are you glad you made the decision to pursue the JD? [14:05]

Oh, thrilled. I cannot be more happy. I thought the classes were going to be harder. I thought they were going to be boring. It’s like I’m finally doing what I’ve wanted to do for years.

Oh, that’s wonderful. [14:21]

It’s not something that I have to slog through and it’s like it’s going to be a tough three years, but just get through it. I’m really enjoying my time.

I guess you’re doing what you really wanted to do, like you say, for years, even if it’s not like a Grisham novel. [14:31]

Yeah. True.

What advice would you have for those interested in pursuing a law degree as a non-traditional candidate? [14:39]

A couple of things. Number one, what I found for me, the question that anyone needs to answer, and I’ve had a bunch of friends come up to me since I posted that I’m going back to school this late in life, some of them, not for law school, one wants to do an MBA, one wants to make a career change. They just don’t think it’s possible this late in life because they don’t see people doing it. The one question I think you need to ask yourself is, how long will it take you to get there?

For law school, it’s three years. For medical school, it could be 10 years. Will you wake up in three years and regret not having done it? If the answer’s yes, then it’s an easy question. You got to figure out the logistics. And that was for me. I’ve thought about medical school. My brother’s a dentist, an orthodontist, and I’ve thought about it. I won’t regret 10 years from now at this stage in my life not having done that. I know I was going to regret not having gone to law school when I was 35 or 36.

So that was, I think, one piece of advice. But I think you had two. [15:38]

Oh, that was one. And number two, and this is like, I could rant about this for an hour. Put everything you have into the LSAT. It can really change your life. A single point could be the difference between getting accepted to your dream school or getting rejected and could be worth thousands of dollars in scholarship. For me, I had in some ways the benefit of the pressure of knowing that my LSAT was going to determine 99% of it because my GPA was so low. So I kind of had this knife to my throat for a year where I was either studying for the LSAT or feeling guilty that I wasn’t studying for the LSAT.

Oh, gosh. [16:22]

And it really, for 11 months, which is longer than most people. Also, keep in mind, I had a full-time job. I lived with the question of whatever the decision is, will this help me do better on the LSAT? So whether it’s going to a movie Saturday night. Obviously, don’t take my advice too seriously. Don’t miss your cousin’s bar mitzvah, once in a while because you want to study, study, study full time. But I definitely didn’t see my friends for a long time and I just focused on studying for the LSAT and it paid off.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [16:59]

That was it, about the LSAT. I really think a lot of people, including me for years, think that it’s an IQ test and it’s really not. It’s really a learnable test. And I think a lot of people study wrong.

What’s studying wrong or right? [17:15]

For example, if a student, let’s say someone who’s a freshman in college and knows they want to go to law school and they’re like four years early, I’m going to start studying now. And they study a little bit every day. To me that would be like if you want to run a 26 mile marathon so you run a mile every day. When you get to the marathon, you’re not going to be able to do the 26 miles. So another thing where you trust the expert and go to people who teach the LSAT well, which is also another area. But it’s really something that’s a learnable skill. And don’t tell yourself, “Well, I’m not in the top tier of intelligence, so I probably can’t get the top tier of grades and scores on the LSAT.” And I think with the right motivation and really looking at your mistakes and being your own coach and beating yourself up about it because no one else will do it, can really help you to maximize your potential on the LSAT.

All right. Well, you obviously did. I want to thank you so much, Yitzy, for taking the time to join me today. I really appreciate your sharing your experience and perspective. Now, before we started the interview, you and I had talked where people can reach out to you via LinkedIn…[18:09]

Absolutely.

I actually reached out to one of your guests who had offered people to reach out to, it was Chris Melcher. He’s a professor at Pepperdine. And he, at the end of his interview, offered anyone want to reach out? I took him up on his offer and he helped me on a couple of my essays.

Wow. [18:44]

So honestly, if anyone has questions about being an older parent, non-traditional applicant or just want to talk about the LSAT, I’d love to talk to them. Yitzy Frankel, Y-I-T-Z-Y F-R-A-N-K-E-L. Find me on LinkedIn. And if I’m not studying, I’ll respond.

Okay, great. And we’ll link to Yitzy’s LinkedIn profile from accepted.com/507, which are the show notes for today’s show. So again, Yitzy, thank you. [19:03]

Thank you. And I know I’ve said this before, but thank you to Accepted and to Brigitte who really, that’s like my other piece of advice, go to the experts. They know how to apply. They know law schools and don’t mess it up.